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An Israeli Point of View about Gaza – Written by BraveJeWorld
The Israeli public has rarely been a dutiful amen chorus for its political leaders, to say the least. Israel’s hyper-active democracy involves frequent demonstrations attacking the government of the day from the left and the right. Public opinion led to commissions of inquiry into the Yom Kippur War of 1973, and more recently, the 2006 Second Lebanon War. Twenty-five years ago massive public protests against government policy during the First Lebanon War led to the removal of Defence Minister Ariel Sharon. Just some of the many vibrant signs of the sole democratic state in the Middle East.
All of this makes the overwhelming public support for this campaign against Hamas in Gaza all the more notable. A few days before the attack began, the left-wing Meretz Party – unwaveringly committed to a negotiated two-state deal with the Palestinians – called for military action against Hamas.
Israel has had enough.
Israel withdrew all settlements and soldiers from Gaza in 2005. Hamas used the very areas that had been vacated by Jewish settlers as launching sites for Qassam rockets against southern Israeli towns. It attacked an Israeli army post on the Gaza border in 2006 and kidnapped 19 year-old Gilad Shalit. The rockets have continued to fall (well over a thousand in 2008 alone and 10,000 since 2001) and this young soldier remains in captivity over two years later. Instead of helping build up Gaza into a prosperous area for the Palestinian people there, Hamas chose to oust its rival party Fatah and insisted on attacking Israel with rockets and manipulating the Gazan people to support it in its struggle.
Israel is, of course, being criticized for “excessive” force in these recent attacks. But in fact Israel has exercised extraordinary restraint for the past two and half years by tolerating continued rocket fired on its southern towns. Of those countries currently wagging a finger, which of them would have responded to non-stop rocket attacks on their citizens by taking no military action, and continuing to supply the very regime launching the rockets with electricity. Britain? France? To say nothing of Russia whose ‘concern’ for the lives of innocent Palestinian civilians is frankly laughable. Fighting Chechen rebels operating from within a civilian population, the Russian air force made no attempt to discriminate in its bombing. Neither NATO in its air strikes on Milosevic’s Serbia, nor the US and its allies in Afghanistan after 9/11, took anything like the measures Israel has employed to try to minimize civilian casualties.
Unfortunately, tragically, ordinary Palestinians have been killed and injured. Hamas makes a point of using civilian homes and even schools, as bases and for arms storage. (Such callous disregard for the lives of their own people is hardly a moral deviation for an organisation that indoctrinates children in kindergartens to become suicide bombers.)
Every Israeli politician, official, or spokesman has stated that Israel is not at war with the people of Gaza but with Hamas. Even as the attacks on Hamas targets continue, Israel is allowing aid trucks into Gaza for the ordinary population. The tragedy for the Palestinians – yet again – is their leadership. Just as Yasser Arafat denied his people a viable state in Gaza and 97% of the West Bank, with a capital in East Jerusalem, by rejecting the Clinton Plan in 2000, so the Hamas regime has condemned 1.5 million Gazans to international isolation and now, to be caught up in a military conflict that their leaders could have so easily prevented.
Hamas refused to accept what they claimed were the international community’s “unreasonable” criteria for international acceptance – that the organisation abandon terrorism and recognize Israel’s right to exist. They would not do so. Egypt pleaded with Hamas to end its rocket attacks lest Israel be left with no choice but to declare war on the Gaza regime. Hamas ignored the advice.
Pity the Palestinians for their wretched self-destructive leaders, who would see their own people burn rather than give up the dream of destroying the Jewish State.
Hamas, motivated above all by hatred of Israel and of Jews, has always looked to sow bloody carnage. Now it is reaping the fruits on a grand scale. This is war. Israel has had enough.
This article would have had more credibitlity had it not been so one sided. It completely ignore the fact that Israel is an occupying force that has failed to achieve any peace for 60 years. Hamas is relatively new on the scene. So maybe, you can explain why the Israeli Government failed to reach an agreement pre-Hamas existence and pre-rocket period. Also bear in mind that since Anapolis, Israel has increased its check points, continues re-settlements, made incursions in the Palestinian territory at will, keep shooting at palestinians in the west bank, taken thousands of palestinian prisoners and controls what goes in and out of the palestinian territory.
When you say Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005…..what do you exactly mean by pull out. it might have left the territory but remain in control of it and held the Palestinian in Gaza as hostage. It controls their movements in and out of their territory, decides whether they will have food on the table or whether they will have electricity. Also bear in mind, that the election in Palestine territory was championed by both Israel and the USA, and monitored and reported to have been fair. Whose fault is it that Israel and the USA decides to not recognise Hamas. By the way, Hamas is not the only Arab state which does not recognise Israel. With regards to the effort that Israel is taking to minimise civilian casualties. This is truly laughable. Israel has trapped 1.5million people of which 40% are women and children in an area known as the most densely populated area in the world, close off all borders, drop leaflets on them and ring their houses to tell them to leave before bombing. Leave to go where? Your foreign minister lying on western television saying there is no humanitarian crisis in the Gaza strip which is being bombarded with its innocent population not having anywhere to run.
The video realese from the Israelis showing the bombing of a truck which they claim were being loaded with rockets, this has been proven to be lies by B’tselem an israeli humanitarian organisation.
The west bank is now under restrictions, the muslim population in Jerusalem was stopped from attending friday prayers unless they were aged over 50. The Palestinian holding Israelis citizenship arrested for peacefully demonstrating. This resemble more like a police state to me.
And please stop trying to draw comparison between Israel and Britain or France. We in Britain are not occupying any land or holding any popuation hostage, and if anyone was occupying our land they will be getting more than the odd primitive rockets…trust me. Israel will never be a peaceful or a secure place with Hamas in existence or not for as long as it continues with its occupation.
ok and which parts of this do you disagree with..
or do you recognise that both perspectives are solid yet sadly conflicting and hence our complicated and difficult reality..
Rashid, you criticise others for being very one-sided but I don’t see you making a balanced approach to the issues. You have also been totally one sided. Not much of a criticism of others when you are also acting in exactly the same way.
BraveJeWorld´s last blog post..Hamas Weapons in Civilian Areas
BraveJeWorld……how have i been one sided. I have pointed out hat Israel has a right to defend its citizen. I have shown consideration for both sides in terms of their losses.
Let me make it clear with you where I stand here. I am neither defending the agression on Israel nor the agression from Israel. My stance is that the situation in the middle east goes much deeper than the rockets that was fired and the resistence shown by the Palestinian people. I am yet to see anything written of value that goes to the core of the problem and the way to resolve it peacefully. I dont believe efforts made so far by both sides of the conflict has done much to bring security and peace to their people.
Israel is a democratic country as you all say…..should they not be accountable to their citizens as to why over the past 41 years successive governments had failed to deliver security to their people through peaceful means. As for the Palestinian, time and time again you hear all kind of initiative that they get engage into in order to have a viable Palestinian state, which has full control over its affairs and borders. But nothing seems to move forward…..
My own opinion based on historical facts is that peace are achieved through peaceful means and not at the barrel of a gun. There can be no winners in situation like this. Israel today live at peace with Egypt and Jordan…..was this achieved through bombardment or peaceful negotiations. So, why is it that when it comes to the Palestinian issue force is the only mean?
Rashid making peace not at gun point is something we both aspire to..
we have proven that we can through two treaties already.. the palestinians cant even agree amongst themselves..
i think that actions are a bit louder than words here
lirun´s last blog post..being a kid..
Lirun,
Very true! Actions speaklouder than words. I wonder how much of that has taken place in the past 40 odd years and what has been the outcome on Occupation, Re-settlements, formation of a Palestinian State and the peace that both parties claim to desire so much?
From where I am standing all I can see is continued occupation, radicalisation of people fighting for freedom, expansion of re-settlements, siege, imprisonment of people without trial, bulding of walls, firing of rockets on Israeli civilian, mis match of one of the worlds biggest army against a resistance movement that is using all means to keep their plight on the international agenda. A democracy that is justifying its killing of civilian through a system of collective punishment. I believe that Israel has the resources and intelligence information that it could have used to systematically destroy Hamas without resorting to this current action. Targeted assasination has long been a policy of Israel as you well know. Time will tell who has benefitted from this illogical war. I personally feel that whatever peace is achived through this mean is very likely to be temporary and short lasting in historical term. The Palestinian and Israeli alike will not forget their struggle. The current massacre is very likely to create more extremism and deep seated hatred. Peace and security cannot be enforced it needs to be negotiated politically taking account of what would be acceptable to the parties involved and what compromise they are happy to make in order to achieve their respective goals.
I wonder why the Israeli did not seize the opportunity of showing that they can reward negotiation by giving Mahmood Abbas some tangible incentive which would have strengthen his hands. What exactly did he get through peaceful means since Anapolis?
the rewars abbas received were mostly through release of prisoners.. its hard because every win abbas has needs to be carefully framed.. he is often accused by palestinians of being a collaborator..
not a simple place..
i agree that aggression is not the solution.. question is how we transition out..
lirun´s last blog post..being a kid..
Lirun,
I think the answer to your question lies with both parties sincerely acting on behalf of their respective citizens to achieve negotiated peace. I am puzzled as to what role Tony Blair has played and how much he has helped in this process. This is a man who sat with the IRA, painstakingly faced revolt from the protestant majority in Northern Ireland. Since then we have not had a single terrorist attack on our shores. IRA has now been disarmed and forms part of the political framework.
Can you imagine what would have happened if we had adopted a confrontational military approach to this problem? I believe we would still be living with the terror that we experienced and loads of life would have been lost on both side. Just so that we het the record straight on another matter, Israel’s ally the USA supported and funded the IRA and they were treated like delegates to the whitehouse. I did not hear anyone saying terror has to be defeated then.
What is needed is the political will of the respective government and the citizens of the two countries shoud be demanding this from their leaders.
Tony Blair does do a lot of good work behind the scenes, so I believe.
Mahmoud Abbas has seen good results from working on Peace negotiations with Israel. The PA and Israel has shown they can work together to bring a sense of normal life to the West Bank. Jenin and Nablus have now had law and order restored to them thanks to the Israeli training of the PA police force. The economy in the Palestinian Territories is also improved. These have been real results.
You’re right, a lot of the process depends on the leadership of both sides.
As we have seen from the Gaza story unfortunately, the Hamas government has not lead its people to a peaceful negotiation, unlike its rival Fatah, and chose the violent route of constant rockets on Israel and the manipulation of its own people. Very sad. Had they not been a radical Islamic terror organisation, things could have been very different.
BraveJeWorld´s last blog post..Hamas Rejects Truce
BJW… I understand where you coming from but what i dont uderstand is this stance of not negotiating with so called extremist or terrorist. What Isreal might term torrorist others might term freedom fighters. This will lead both people to nowhere. My point is the will to peaceful co-existance shoud be the over riding factor. By not negotiating and refusing to at least get engage, the status quo will remain. Both people will go through this spiral of violence. I personally dont feel either party can claim a higher moral standard, there is all this cliam and counter claim in the media war and propagada war that we are all witnessing. This will lead to absolutely nowhere and its main aim is not for peace but for winning public opinion. I must however let you know that I do take exception to you calling Hamas or any other organisation “islamic terror organisation” there is nothing Islamic about thier activities. Radicalism might be a better word. Since you have pushed me in the past on this subject. I would love you to provide me with a recognise definition of “Islamic Terror Organisation”. As far as I am concerned terror has no brand or religion. I look forward to your defintion.
i thnk we need to talk to hamas.. i dont think there is a choice but i would prefer for fatah and hamas to sort out their differences first.. in any event i dont thnk that missiles are more persuasive..
hoping these aweful events end soon..
lirun´s last blog post..not easy to represent..
Lirun,
I totallly agree with with you my learned friend. This would indeed the best way forward. However, two issues arise. One the pelestinian Unity and two having the will to achieve peace through talking and negotiating.
On the issue of Palestinian Unity. I believe Hamas and Fatah need to iron out their differences without any outside interference. By this I mean from other arab states,usa or israel. They need to do this and arrive at one common apparoach to peace. What would facilitate this is a cease fire on both sides back by the international players. A cease fire that take account of both parties concerned backed by real positive action being taken. One does not see any rockets being fired by Hamas, remove their capabilities to acquire more weapons and on the Israeli side no more closing of check points and holding the Gazzan hostage through the siege of Gazza. This should then set up the path to Negotiations for Israel to have peace and security within its recognised borders, cessation of any more settlements, return of refugees, released of detainees and an end to occupation. I know it is likely to be more compicated but both parties should act in the best interests of thier people rather than act as proxies to their ally.
What are your thoughts?
i think uve gone for the whole cake and its too early.. one bite at a time.. and its going to take time..
even the borders will take time.. but at least stop the hostilities and allow the gazans to enjoy the same policy that the west bank has with its open bridges with jordan.. ie let them breath.. and live and hopefully prosper
hamas and fatah once united need to change the charter to a peaceful charter..
israelis will respond to peace.. at least i believe so..
detainees and prisoners need to be released ultimately but in an orderly fashion and in exchange for commitments not to resume violence and to play a positive role in palestinian society..
refugees should be allowed back to palestine but not to israel..
given that i think the two state solution is a key stepping stone to regional peace – freeze new settlement development but dont choke existing major blocks.. everyone knows a land swap will be vital..
arab towns close to the green line on the israeli side should be subject to a referrendum.. if they seek to join palestine then their land canbe included in the deal.. if not then they need to remain loyal to the israeli state once the peace agreement is concluded.. jewish descendants of refugees from middle eastern countries (over 2,500,000) need to be compensated by arab countries..
active people to people peace work needs to be prioritised with a heavy focus on children and environment..
eventually – a federal economy can be set up if the palestinians are open to it and ultimately huge savings can be incurred through collaboration on key issues and national interests..
ultimately a confederation of states may indeed be viable and ultimately who knows maybe even something tighter.. provided our identities are honoured.. but thats way beyond the basics..
lets get a long standing ceasefire first so we can rebuild trust..
lirun´s last blog post..from the heart..
I agree with 99% of what you have written but the 1% need to be looked into as well. I like the fact that you think the Jewish descendants of refugees need to be compensated if they were forced to leave their residence and did not leave as a result of Israel expansion policy. On the surface it seems rational BUT who is going to compensate the Palestinian refugees who escaped from now southern Israel who you say should not return back to their home in Israel but remain as refugees in West Bank or Gaza.
Whilst we are on the point of compensation… the victim of the Holocaust was compensated ….. why did the Israel state claim the money. At the time of the holocaust The state of Israel was not even in existance. I agree with compensation so long as these individual reap the benefits of their sufferance and not the state.
I tell you what I find so difficult to comprehend. I am by no means religious or a scholar of my religion, but from what i have read the Jews and Arab co-existed for so long in that part of the world and indeed in that region. Our prophet is even quoted to have said ” whoever mock the Jewish religion, they mocking me”. How did it all go wrong? Why?
I think we should together not allow evil to triumph over good. Both communities has good values and moral standard, but somehow the devil seems to be getting the better of both.
I wonder what prophet Moses (PBUH) and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) would have made of the behaviour of their followers.
By he way, can you direct me to where i can can a copy of the English translated Jewish Torah.
Thanks
Surely the issue here is one of blind faith (you can’t argue with a man’s blind faith because it has no rational basis). As I see it, a bunch of Europeans who believed they were racially linked to people in the Mid East claimed a right to land lived in by Palestinians, because they were persecuted by Germans and Russians. While the author might ask if the UK, France or Russia would tolerate rockets raining down on them, why not ask if any of these countries would tolerate giving up 75% of their lands to people from another continent and then would happily live in refugee camps in the remaining 25% because those foreign invaders were directed by their God?
If it wasn’t for religion there wouldn’t be this situation because:
1. You would find it a lot harder to logically persuade someone to be a suicide bomber
2. Followers of Judaism wouldn’t think that they were a God’s race that had to live in Palestine / Israel
3. People could marry / become partners with who they wanted so in 300 years you wouldn’t be able to tell Jews and Palestinians apart
4. If a Jewish state was needed it could be carved out of Germany, Russia or some of the countries that gave rise to Jewish people feeling threatened and feeling the need for their own state.
5. People wouldn’t wear ridiculous impractical clothing to identify their religion and set them apart identifiably from each other – like women covered head to toe in black and men wearing long hair, black trench coats and hats even when they emigrated to the middle east.
And so on.
Lets face it – until we can point out that these “religious” people are all nuts then this conflict will go on and on and on. But saying that is taboo. It seems in the media that anyone who doesn’t accept Israel’s “right to exist because of these people’s religion taking precedent over the rights of the people quietly living there first” is some kind of extremist, and anyone that points out that a religion that can spawn all of these terrorists, child bombers and such like is bad is considered unreasonable.
The blood spilt here is the cost of allowing these people their religions or their religious freedoms. After all religion is just the right to hold stupid ideas that don’t have to stand up to logical scrutiny. If people want to hold crazy ideas fine – but where they result in death and conflict there ideas should be held up to logical ridicule whether they come from a religious book or not.
For people reading the above comment and trying to detect a bias, I am not for Israel and I am not for Palestine, I am against both, as both factions seem to be run by religious nuts. I am for a secular world where people don’t believe a God has instructed them to kill other people or to take their land.
hey rashid
sorry i wont be responding to david because i cant be bothered dealing with ignorant crap.. people should fix that shit up by reading rather than spewing their uncooked impressions..
to be honest i havent studied the whole reason israel administered the compensation of holocaust victims but i suppose it was in part to do with the fact that some of the damage was nationwide and intangible ie pertaining to offspring / people who had passed away etc.. including for example for masses of people who were settled and rehabilitated by israel as a state at the expense of the state.. but honestly im not sure.. i have to say though that as someone with holocaust heritage – my family received on ly a fraction of what was ours.. and frankly i dont care..
while we struggled for years – we have all made lives for ourselves and i dont need german handouts..
on the coexistence side – being also a descendant of jews who basically never left israel as well as jews who lived in the region – i can tell you that the myth of our coexistence was no more than that.. there were pockets of friendship but largely we were living subordinate communities taxed as dimmi and second rate for 1600 years..
in some places our communities were even more ancient than the muslim arabs that came after us like in iraq for example.. we were in fact more indigenous than they were.. and still we were persecuted for centuries.. i think muslims traditionally are so used to an inferior standing for the jew that its hard for them to stomach a jew that is successful independent and god forbid ruling over a muslim.. not individually but culturally at large..
i offer you a link to a post of mine on this topic:
http://emspeace.blogspot.com/2008/12/forgotten-refugees.html
if you want to find our torah translated just google old testament but keep in mind the torah is just one of several books..
i think we must learn to respect eachother.. we must all agree to make compromises – spiritually and ideologically to make room for eachother..
i mean – if we really both loved this land – would we be torturing it so much?
lirun´s last blog post..from the heart..
David,
Whatever harm is caused in the name of God has no religious basis. You ask anyone who belongs to any of the worls religion they will tell you that. If the media choose to portray religion in that way, it is down to our intellect to decide and not be consumed by all we hear.
To blame religion for this is quite naive in the least. Whats at issue here is as you rightly point out the effect that the western world’s idea of creating a Jewish state has had on the indegenous population in that part of the world. This is all a mistake from the Imperialist west and their insatiable appetite to exploit the colinised area. Wherever, colonisation occurred has had a bloody struggle to set themselves free and gain independence. Furthermore, the fact that the west foreign policy in that region has been based on their strategic objective rather than what is best for that area has further deepen this conflict. The “war on terror” campaign had radicalise people and the west insistance of imposing their brand of democracy on others has helped to fuel deep division. An imposed democracy is by nature a form of dictatorship in itself. Well GW Bush and T Blair are both supposedly deeply religious. I did not hear anyone branding the invasion of Iraq a religious war.
Hi Rashid,
I beg to differ with your views on three things:
1. “the West”. The USA has until recently been lead by a “born again” Christian who cited his “God” as a guiding force in directing his policies. I lump the USA into the lead by religious nuts category. In fact much of GW Bush’s language has strong religious overtones and cased offense. Blair was in charge of a secular country, so had to keep his religious views fairly private, although maybe his God moved him to back Bush so heavily, as most of his electorate did not and this was one factor that lead to him stepping down from his role.
2. Media portrayal of religion: Actually this adopts your tone about whether Mohammed or Jesus would approve etc “ad nauseum”. In historical terms very little is truly known about these characters and in religious terms views are quite split to the extent that the religions themselves have quite opposing and often warring factions. Moth M and J divided the prevailing religions of their day and so as such were not unifying forces, and quite frankly could have been for all this fighting. Fundamentally many Jews, Christians and Muslims believe (with their blind faith) that people who don’t follow their faith or even their variety of that faith will be damned to hell. If their God is going to do inhuman harm to these souls after death anyway, it is hardly encouraging the “true believers” to treat the “infidels” well in this life. Or does their God teach that we should all be nice and caring to every other human being so that “He” can torture them in hell later? The media likes to waft overtones of how religions can co-exist and how the “true” religious views would oppose all the violence that religion has in practice given rise to, although the media never really states how it knows this.
3. Democracy is by nature a form of dictatorship: Democratic leaders have to go to much greater lengths to fool their public and when they do they usually pay for it later by loosing power. Those dictators that mid east and African ex-colonies chose to free themselves with usually don’t. Sorry, but the mid east countries would have a much better argument against Israel if they weren’t run by a bunch of despots and dictators who use religion to distract their populations from the things that really matter – like the fact that those leaders are stealing all the oil money and leaving very little behind. The communists got one thing right – religion is the opium of the masses. Religious institutions always go for political power and influence. Religion is a political tool to oppress the common man in this world by promising him stuff in an imaginary next world. I’m sorry, but the suicide bombers who give up this life for imaginary virgins in the “next” life are just being conned as much as someone who would sell me his car for invisible money. As soon as people stop voting because of tribe and / or religion but instead on idea on logic the better. 99.9% of people die with the religion they were born to, so religion is hardly a set of beliefs that people choose but ideas that they are indoctrinated into, often religion just reinforces racial and other differences with their neighbors.
The way to peace is by trashing the religion which divides mankind and causes conflict. Look at the lessons of history. I hope that the world one day can have logical debates about the issues at hand, rather than debates about my God thinking differently to your God. I mean, people are dying and having wars based on imaginary friends that no one has seen! Let’s end the collective hallucinations of these religions and start living in peace.
Regards,
David
David
We will have to agree to disagree on the point of religion. I respect your views based on your knowledge but thats not the role that i see religion plays in people’s life. There are a lot of believing people who lives peacefully and co-exists happily. I disagree that religion is the cause of the problem. It is a well known fact that God creates and men destroys. What religion lead GW BUsh and T Blair to lie to us about the subject of WMD in Iraq. Funny how the so called democracy has forgotten about this..conveniently maybe. You might vote them out in a democracy, but the nation lives with their mistake for years to come. GW Bush and T Blair are both responsible for making our world so unsafe.
Aggression and total disregard for human life has no basis in any world religion….only in idealogy that hide behind a religion.
On the subject of democracy. Read carefuly what I wrote. Enforced democracy is by nature a form of dictatorship. What i mean by this is that you cannot enforce your brand of democracy on other nations. Did you know that Iran was a democracy until USA and the WEST decided to overturn it and install the Shah.
Regards
Rashid
ok i dont see how this direction of commentary is relevant to the post
lirun´s last blog post..what opportunity are we missing..
Lirun
Read my answer to yours…forget my friend David…he has moved this to a different level altogether.
Rashid, you are clearly a beautiful person. If the world were more full of religious people like you then conflict might end.
My point is only that religion uses the “blind faith” argument to say that people are allowed to believe ludicrous things that are illogical and that everyone else must “respect” these views.
If we could turn back the clock it would make a great deal of sense for the Germans and Russians to have given the Jews land to create a homeland rather than to displace all the Pale stinians who had been quietly living in their lands.
Turn the clock forward and that is not what happened.
Just as in South Africa there are now a bunch of Europeans living in lands that logically are not theirs. You can’t move all these people. But that does not mean that just because they are Jews and their God told them they had a right to live their and kivk everyone out that they were right.
It is most ironic that the state of Israel is effectively creating two Palestinian concentration camps in light of the history of the Jewish people.
Somehow the Palestinian people need to have not only a viable state but a viable culture. probably the only way to get ahead as a Palestinian is to join an NGO or a semi terrorist political organization – there is no economy there.
In terms of “relevance” to the original post , well it might help if the Israeli’s actually admitted that although the plight of European Jews was indeed terrible, the plight of Palestinians (who were in no way responsible for the plight of the Jews in Europe) is also terrible and that many have been displaced / evicted from lands where their ancestors lived for generations.
The fact that, as most western media seems to t we must all agree Western Europeans had a right to displace the Palestinians in their homeland just because their religion states so wrong. The humility to start from the position that a bunch of Europeans shouldn’t be in Palestine but we have to deal with that fact would be a huge first step that religion blocks.
Then the denouncement of all forms of terrorism for religious purposes would be a huge second step.
Then opening up the debate to a logical, rational discussion that could debate anything without fear of disturbing religious sentimentalities would be a third huge leap for mankind.
The whole debate has to be conducted, it seems, from the fundamental acceptance that an Israeli state has a “right” to exist that supersedes the rights of the inhabitants of that land to stay there because of religious blind faith. i would argue that those Jewish invaders have no “right” to be there but that the practical problem is that they are and we need to deal with that.
Let’s face it – if little Jewish girls were marrying little arab boys and vice versa and the whole religious garbage was buried then we’d have no problems.
So until the debate is opened up to non-religious rational conversation there will only be more killing. When Jews and Palestinians vote tvote together for their next government based on whether they would like more hospitals or less taxes this will be solved. In the meantime religion stands in the way.
David,
Historically this land was under the Islamic caliphate and Jews, arabs and Chrisitan all lived together. So, my belief is that no single religion can claim right to the land but the creation of Israel changed this equation.
Nowlet me provide another spin on this. The United Nation along with USA and Britain created the State of Israel. So the legitimisation of Israel as a state comes from the UN. But Israel has shown over the 60 years to be in constant violation of security council resolution and lately demonstrated that following SR1860 when they declared that”no one will tell Israel when it should finish this operation”. However, this same Israel has issue with Hamas who refuses to accept UN Resolution which led to the creation of Israel. So why is it an issue with Israel when Hamas refuse to accept UN Resolution of the creation of Israel?
Food for thought!
that is a very crass analysis of international law as well as the history of the region.. the land had a history prior to the islamic rule as well as one before the rule of the cruisaders and even prior to being ruled by the jews..
under international law israel has some very clear duties to uphold with respect to its citizens.. arab and jew alike..
the world’s silence while thousands of gazan rockets exclusively targeting civillians israel over close to a decade is more than enough evidence of the utter apathy to israel’s security concerns by the insecurity council lead by master terrorist libya as well as the entire international community..
back seat driving is pretty annoying and often should be ignored..
lirun´s last blog post..what opportunity are we missing..
I like how you single out Libya at the security council. Would like to hear your comments about the role USA plays there? No doubt they are the only honest party at the security council. To be honest, my opinion of that organisation is that it is largely ineffective and is used by a few to justify their foriegn policy and get legitimacy for atrocities.
It is amzing that it took the UN so long to come to an agreement on a cease fire yet it took your foreign minister hours to secure a MOU from the US. Bear in mind also that the world was silent when Israel broke the cease fire on November 4th and led an operation into Gaza and furthermore, when Israel decided to put Gaza under siege by the blockade.
We seem to be going round and round about its Hamas that led to this. Well no doubt there is an Israeli perspective and a Hamas perspective. But as a human who values life, it matter not who is at fault nothing justifies the killing of children, women and elderly after imprisoning them in an open prison. United Nation compuond has again been targetted today. I know what Israel will say again. Hamas was hiding amongst civilian. So, The UN personnel on the grounds are lying. To date we have not seen any evidence of the claims that Israel has made.
The situation has gotten so bad now and I think Justice is what we should see after the massacre ends. Just like the Nazi was brought to Justice, like Saddam Hussein was brought to justice, we need to see people from both sides being brought to account for this 21st century massacre of the Palestinian people. Enough is enough.
Lirun
What aboutIsrael’s duty to the occupied citizen?
Any thought?
And please dont tell me they left Gaza in 2005. What they did was vacated the premises but held the key to it. You know what I mean.
Lirun
I just watched TV and saw the plight of a Palestinian doctor who works in Israel and who had lost his daughters today.
I was disgusted at what some people were shouting at him when he was talking about his sufferings and as if pleading his innocence. He was being accused of hiding weapons and lying.
This is truly sad and exposes the kind of extremism in Iarael that the Israeli government try so desperately to hide. I have often heard Israeli politician say that any civilian death in Gaza is cosidered a sad occasion by them and they often accuse the Palestinian for celebrating Israeli death. What we saw today and the way they treated this doctor clearly exposes the myth of that claim. This is a dcotor that has delivered care to Israeli people and work in Israeli hospital.
I AM TRULY DISGUSTED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UxJWdCwOpc&eurl=http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200911715289337400.html&feature=player_embedded
check this out
Lirium “the land had a history prior to the islamic rule as well as one before the rule of the cruisaders and even prior to being ruled by the jews.”.
Hmm. So your proposition is that all the land should go to the descendants of the earliest identifiable settlers of that land? So if we can find descendants of the settlers before Jews then all the Jews should be put in concentration camps and the pre-Jews should live in the farmable nice parts of Israel / Palestine or whatever you want to call it?
Please also explain if it is because of race and origin that the Jews should be there instead of the Palestinians, why it is that the European Jews look racially European, African Jews look African and only the local Jews from Arab countries look ethnically Arab? So how can these people logically say it is their homeland?
It doesn’t make any sense because there is absolutely zero logical reason that Palestinians should have been turfed out of their homes and forced to live in a fraction of their home lands. Rashid – for your interest the British (then Churchill) agreed to the creation of Israel under duress and with great reservation. Roosevelt effectively blackmailed Britain as it needed loan funds after World War II.
But the Israelis have managed to have the whole issue of accepting their right to a state completely taken off the debate. People who disagree are branded anti-semitic. The Israelis then expect the Palestinians to be grateful when the Israelis offer them less than half of their original lands back. What gives? Until the Israeli’s at least say that they are sorry for stealing these people’s lands how can there ever be peace? And saying that their religion told them to do it or that it was justified because of Hitler just won’t cut it.
I don’t agree with the Palestinian rockets and I am sure that if t hey had the tanks and jet fighters that they might find a way to fight a “nicer” war with Israel. I don’t agree with any violence, but I can see that having their lands stolen, living in two concentration camps, having no economy or prospects has radicalized these Palestinians. There is some context to the violence. Until both parties accept this – instead of demonizing one another – how can there be a lasting peace?
David
I wholeheartedly agree with you analysis and views.
It is up to voices like us to keep the issue of “oocupation” at the forefront of this problem rather than allow the zionist PR machine to dictate event on the ground. This is why I believe that were it not for the rockets, there would have been someother reasons for Isreal to attack Gaza.
By the way have you heard of the 1.8 trillion metre cube of Gaz reserve off the coast of Gaza? Could this have been the reason?
i wont answer point by point because its too long – although it is interesting..
but i will say that the ethnic analysis is also off.. jews always look different to their host communities.. almost always.. european jews were generally a shade darker plus slightly different featured “at best” and other communities also shared their distinctions..
sure there was blending but anyone who knows anything about genetics knows that eye skin and hair colour account for very minor aspects of geneology.. there are extensive studies about these topics including some done by a lebanese muslim lady who tell some very interesting tales..
do your research buddy..
“sure there was blending” …
“jews always look different to their host communities.. almost always.. european jews were generally a shade darker plus slightly different featured” …
“anyone who knows anything about genetics knows that eye skin and hair colour account for very minor aspects of geneology”
Sure, many European Jews looked more like Palestinians and Arabs than their host communities, what gives? However there were and are many pale, blond, small nosed, thin and straight haired individuals with none of the features associated with “Jewishness” who are in fact Jews. The whole racial idea behind any of this debate, if you subjected it to science, is balderdash. The idea that you can racially decide who lived somewhere first and then make that people the master race there is ridiculous, and given the history of the Jewish people quite bitterly ironic.
Jews, arabs and anyone else living in the world should learn to share their lands and live in peace. Perhaps dropping the religions and tribalism would be a good start, all of it is baseless superstition and not fact. No one is right or wrong in this argument. Everyone is just stupid. And people are getting killed because of attitudes like these. So much for “religion” and “race”.
which is where your eutopia – as delicious as it may sound – is farfetched and remote.. before we learn to indulge in eachother’s cultural differences and group hug till the end of time we need to establish eachother’s dignity and security.. part of this process is likely to also touch upon our identities and these are constantly morphing..
you can slice this conflict in many ways and reilgion and ethnicity are just two.. some angles will seem more contentious and others meaningless – depending on your personal views and priorities – but the fact remains that we have a conflict.. and its deep..
on that we agree then. i am not actually one of these people who thinks that every culture can co-exist happily. cultures are based on values and values by nature clash. for example, having women covered from head to toe in cloth because one culture values sex discriminatory modesty versus another culture that values sex equality and freedom. these two values will clash. so people won’t hug each other for eternity and i think that values are worth clashing over, albeit i prefer debate to violence.
i think, however, that when the debate is based on prejudice that it adds no value. prejudice is based on preconceptions that are based on things other than logic. so religion fits that well, your god is green and mine is yellow so let’s kill each other: all “religious” ideas that we are taught to “respect” and not subject to usual rationale (load of garbage about how you have to respect people’s religious views whatever they might be).
likewise i would hope that wars based on race would largely be seen as a bad thing, even by the participants in this conflict.
so the jews race argument for being in palestine / israel is logically nul. both jews and arabs can make all sorts of arguments about their god and religion saying that they should be there, based on blind faith etc. in fact i can start a new religion saying that my god thinks i should own it and the jews and palestinians should all leave. so that argument is pretty nul too.
why aren’t people brave enough to attack the arguments on both sides of this conflict, as both sets of argument are completely rubbish.
palestinians who were forcibly evicted from lands and farms deserve compensation. if jews feel persecuted (for good reason) and need a homeland then it should be recognised that they could have been a bit more flexible about where that homeland was. for example, would it not have made a great deal more sense to give them part of russia and germany, countries who were their greatest protagonists, rather than part of palestine when the palestinians to my knowledge had no debt to the jews?
i don’t think that the violence will stop until you can remove religion and race from the picture. as long as there are people who are driven by fables and myths instead of logic then you can forget it.
again – u cannot distil the conflict into a sequence of rights and entitlements.. history is larger than that.. and there is no point discussing other places for israel to exist.. because its not moving.. so im not going to start imagining myself living in russia or germany when my family – partly hailing from the yishuv hayashan (the jews that never left) lived here consistently and was always connected to this place.. i dont belong anywhere else and frankly there no one else ever did either..
we need to be more pragmatic and less abstract.. people are living and dying by these theories..
.-= lirun´s last blog ..going to qatar.. maybe.. =-.